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-   -   Clad's struggle to real money. (http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=56481)

Ardent Listener 08-19-2006 09:02 PM
Clad's struggle to real money.
 
Look below at the intrinsic value of the U.S. clad coins such as the dime, quater and half dollar. With the recent price increase of nickel and copper the clad coins intrinsic metal value is now over 21%.

Clad is still a four letter word with the hard money crowd, but like the copper penny it too may soon be put on the "too expensive to mint list".

Circulating Coinage Intrinsic Value Table

These coins are found in general circulation today and are considered non-collectible (no numismatic premium). This table does not reflect U.S. Mint production costs, but the pure base metal value that composes the coin. Calculations are based on coin weight, metal composition, and base metal(s) price. The "Metal % of Denomination" column represents the percentage of metal that comprises the denomination's purchasing power. A coin that is over 100% in this category has more base metal value than purchasing power.

Table based on August 18, 2006 closing base metal prices (expressed in pounds):

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top width="33%">Copper $3.3982/lb http://www.coinflation.com/up.gif 0.0616</TD><TD vAlign=top width="33%">Zinc $1.4583/lb http://www.coinflation.com/up.gif 0.0140</TD><TD vAlign=top width="33%">Nickel $14.3479/lb http://www.coinflation.com/up.gif 0.4529</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="100%" bgColor=#cccccc border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff border=0><TBODY><TR bgColor=#cccccc><TD align=left bgColor=#cccccc colSpan=2 border="0">Description</TD><TD bgColor=#cccccc border="0">Denomination</TD><TD>Metal Value</TD><TD>Metal % of Denomination</TD></TR><TR><TD>http://www.coinflation.com/penny.gif</TD><TD>1959-1982 Cent (Copper) *</TD><TD>$0.01</TD><TD>$0.0226336</TD><TD>226.3300%</TD></TR><TR><TD>http://www.coinflation.com/nickel.gif</TD><TD>1946-2006 Nickel</TD><TD>$0.05</TD><TD>$0.0676326</TD><TD>135.2600%</TD></TR><TR><TD>http://www.coinflation.com/penny.gif</TD><TD>1982-2006 Cent (Zinc) *</TD><TD>$0.01</TD><TD>$0.0083044</TD><TD>83.0400%</TD></TR><TR><TD>http://www.coinflation.com/dime.gif</TD><TD>1965-2006 Dime</TD><TD>$0.10</TD><TD>$0.0215651</TD><TD>21.5600%</TD></TR><TR><TD>http://www.coinflation.com/quarter.gif</TD><TD>1965-2006 Quarter</TD><TD>$0.25</TD><TD>$0.0538741</TD><TD>21.5400%</TD></TR><TR><TD>http://www.coinflation.com/kennedy.gif</TD><TD>1971-2006 Half Dollar</TD><TD>$0.50</TD><TD>$0.1077486</TD><TD>21.5400%</TD></TR><TR><TD>http://www.coinflation.com/sba.gif</TD><TD>1979, 1980, 1999 SBA</TD><TD>$1.00</TD><TD>$0.0851237</TD><TD>8.5100%</TD></TR><TR><TD>http://www.coinflation.com/sac.gif</TD><TD>2000-2006 Sacajawea **</TD><TD>$1.00</TD><TD>$0.0601664</TD><TD>6.0100%</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=5>
* The Mint issued both compositions in 1982; they can be differentiated by weight (3.11 g copper, 2.5 g zinc).
** 3.5% Manganese metal value not included. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Halophyte 08-19-2006 11:58 PM
Re: Clad's struggle to real money.
 
Good note AL,

The rise in bimetal clad coin melt value is the effect - debt inflation, devaluation of fiat currency, the cause.

Next up, aluminum slugs ...

The Great Ag 08-20-2006 12:52 AM
Re: Clad's struggle to real money.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halophyte (Post 336287)
Good note AL,

The rise in bimetal clad coin melt value is the effect - debt inflation, devaluation of fiat currency, the cause.

Next up, aluminum slugs ...
Naw, aluminum is going up to. It require massive amounts of energy.

I say pretty colored plastic with coarsely ground rocks added for weight. Does it matter what the coins are made of these days. People will spend them and not care.

The Great Ag

azxcvbnm321 08-20-2006 01:34 AM
Re: Clad's struggle to real money.
 
This is a major problem with all metal based coins and currency including silver and gold coins. What happens if the value of gold or silver goes above the stated value on the coin? What happens if a silver dollar becomes more valuable by weight than a dollar? Well the money gets taken out of circulation which disrupts the economy. What would happen if all of our dollars were in silver and silver were to rise above a dollar by weight? There would be no more dollars being used. How would you make a purchase? How would a business be able to operate?

No, it's better that we have coins that are worth more than their metal content. There is also a difference between inflation and hyperinflation. Expansion of the money supply is necessary along with a expanding economy. Millions of more people, millions of more transactions need millions of more dollars to make those transactions viable. Inflation, if expected and moderate, is not bad. Now the FED might have expanded the money supply too much over the last few years, but they did that to prevent a collapse in our economy after the tech bubble and 9-11. They would not make the same mistakes that led to the Great Depression!!! Anyway, the FED is tightening and there is still plenty of time for them to reverse course and get out all the excess.

The Great Ag 08-20-2006 01:57 AM
Re: Clad's struggle to real money.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azxcvbnm321 (Post 336342)
This is a major problem with all metal based coins and currency including silver and gold coins. What happens if the value of gold or silver goes above the stated value on the coin? What happens if a silver dollar becomes more valuable by weight than a dollar? Well the money gets taken out of circulation which disrupts the economy. What would happen if all of our dollars were in silver and silver were to rise above a dollar by weight? There would be no more dollars being used. How would you make a purchase? How would a business be able to operate?

No, it's better that we have coins that are worth more than their metal content. There is also a difference between inflation and hyperinflation. Expansion of the money supply is necessary along with a expanding economy. Millions of more people, millions of more transactions need millions of more dollars to make those transactions viable. Inflation, if expected and moderate, is not bad. Now the FED might have expanded the money supply too much over the last few years, but they did that to prevent a collapse in our economy after the tech bubble and 9-11. They would not make the same mistakes that led to the Great Depression!!! Anyway, the FED is tightening and there is still plenty of time for them to reverse course and get out all the excess.
Hey, Azx:

The answer is simple. Instead of devaluating the gold and silver into oblivion, re-evaluate it to fit your monetary needs.

E.g. taking the old silver/gold standard we had, a 1oz gold coin was worth $20. Increase the value to the desired amount, $50 for example. Everything below it would increase proportinately. $1 silver coin would be worth $3 now. I don't think a single person would mind trading in their old coins for new ones with higher denominations.

Monetary supply problems resolved. You could actually run the world's economy on 1 pound of gold, as it can be fractionalized. Eventually you would end up with "nano-ounces" of gold being denominated in so many dollars.

Do not let the paperchangers feed you their line of bull. Go the otherway of what they say, and you will find the truth.

The Great Ag

azxcvbnm321 08-20-2006 02:23 AM
Re: Clad's struggle to real money.
 
What you're proposing sounds like inflation no? If you say a $1 silver coin is now worth $3, then you have inflation right? Sounds a lot like what we're currently doing now, except that your solution comes all at once and would probably shock the economy. More gradual inflation is better.

What we have to teach people is how to manage their money in these new times. A person can no longer just keep FRN in the bank at 0% interest. They have to understand that they are LOSING money that way and that they must always try their best to beat inflation if at all possible, yet with minimal risk. In the past few years, this has been impossible, but now that money market funds are yielding 5%, you can finally beat the inflation of 4%. People cannot let their banks take advantage of them and borrow their money (in deposits) for 0%!!! They have to find alternative ways of storing their money. Fortunately this is easy thanks to the internet. WWW.bankrate.com has up to date places to get the best rates. A person has to work more, but it's worth it as we don't have the economic fluctuations we had in the past under a gold/silver system.

californiajeff 08-20-2006 02:59 AM
Re: Clad's struggle to real money.
 
Don't listen to the government's lies. Inflation is like 8%+.

The Great Ag 08-20-2006 09:40 AM
Re: Clad's struggle to real money.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azxcvbnm321 (Post 336357)
What you're proposing sounds like inflation no? If you say a $1 silver coin is now worth $3, then you have inflation right? Sounds a lot like what we're currently doing now, except that your solution comes all at once and would probably shock the economy. More gradual inflation is better.

What we have to teach people is how to manage their money in these new times. A person can no longer just keep FRN in the bank at 0% interest. They have to understand that they are LOSING money that way and that they must always try their best to beat inflation if at all possible, yet with minimal risk. In the past few years, this has been impossible, but now that money market funds are yielding 5%, you can finally beat the inflation of 4%. People cannot let their banks take advantage of them and borrow their money (in deposits) for 0%!!! They have to find alternative ways of storing their money. Fortunately this is easy thanks to the internet. WWW.bankrate.com has up to date places to get the best rates. A person has to work more, but it's worth it as we don't have the economic fluctuations we had in the past under a gold/silver system.
On the surface, it looks like I am talking about inflation, but really I am re-evaluating the currency.

Instead of pumping more money into the system, inflation, you are keeping the same amount, the purchasing power increases. So the $1 silver coin now buys $3 dollars worth of goods, without the use of printing more money. This allows for the economy to grow without resorting to printing or creating more money.

More healthy this way. Don't expect this or any other gov't to do this, as this will short the bankers their beloved interest.

The old idea was you would have to creat more money to expand the economy, i.e. dig up more gold/silver, print more money, or for consumers to demand more credit.

It is not necessary, just re-evaluate the currency.

The Great Ag

Ardent Listener 08-21-2006 08:54 PM
22% today.
 
B.T.W, 22% today.




Table based on August 21, 2006 closing base metal prices (expressed in pounds):

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top width="33%">Copper $3.4797/lb http://www.coinflation.com/up.gif 0.0815</TD><TD vAlign=top width="33%">Zinc $1.5077/lb http://www.coinflation.com/up.gif 0.0494</TD><TD vAlign=top width="33%">Nickel $14.5974/lb http://www.coinflation.com/up.gif 0.2495</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="100%" bgColor=#cccccc border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff border=0><TBODY><TR bgColor=#cccccc><TD align=left bgColor=#cccccc colSpan=2 border="0">Description</TD><TD bgColor=#cccccc border="0">Denomination</TD><TD>Metal Value</TD><TD>Metal % of Denomination</TD></TR><TR><TD>http://www.coinflation.com/penny.gif</TD><TD>1959-1982 Cent (Copper) *</TD><TD>$0.01</TD><TD>$0.0231815</TD><TD>231.8100%</TD></TR><TR><TD>http://www.coinflation.com/nickel.gif</TD><TD>1946-2006 Nickel</TD><TD>$0.05</TD><TD>$0.0689939</TD><TD>137.9800%</TD></TR><TR><TD>http://www.coinflation.com/penny.gif</TD><TD>1982-2006 Cent (Zinc) *</TD><TD>$0.01</TD><TD>$0.0085811</TD><TD>85.8100%</TD></TR><TR><TD>http://www.coinflation.com/dime.gif</TD><TD>1965-2006 Dime</TD><TD>$0.10</TD><TD>$0.0220430</TD><TD>22.0400%</TD></TR><TR><TD>http://www.coinflation.com/quarter.gif</TD><TD>1965-2006 Quarter</TD><TD>$0.25</TD><TD>$0.0550677</TD><TD>22.0200%</TD></TR><TR><TD>http://www.coinflation.com/kennedy.gif</TD><TD>1971-2006 Half Dollar</TD><TD>$0.50</TD><TD>$0.1101357</TD><TD>22.0200%</TD></TR><TR><TD>http://www.coinflation.com/sba.gif</TD><TD>1979, 1980, 1999 SBA</TD><TD>$1.00</TD><TD>$0.0869540</TD><TD>8.6900%</TD></TR><TR><TD>http://www.coinflation.com/sac.gif</TD><TD>2000-2006 Sacajawea **</TD><TD>$1.00</TD><TD>$0.0615911</TD><TD>6.1500%</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=5>
* The Mint issued both compositions in 1982; they can be differentiated by weight (3.11 g copper, 2.5 g zinc).
** 3.5% Manganese metal value not included. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Halophyte 08-22-2006 12:02 PM
Re: Clad's struggle to real money.
 
Looks like the nickel is the best bet, two base metals and no sorting required.

Cashed in my change for change today at a local bank, $326 is a chitload of nickels, two trips to my truck.

I'll fill a 50 cal ammo box just for ballast ...

.

The Argent Dragon 08-22-2006 12:07 PM
Re: Clad's struggle to real money.
 
Sacajawea at the bottom.....how ironic.....

Gold 'colored'......$1 tender.....worth a measly 6-cents !!! (hahaha)


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